MichMatters, I see your points about the floodplain, and of course that's the one factor that has not changed about the project. My complaints are similar, the inexpensive building materials and plain architecture. Because come on - we're supposed to settle for just anything. I guess I would rather they build fewer slightly taller buildings. Even if it had to be build in two phases. For instance Marketplace - instead of building in phases - filling the entire property with 2-story structures just for the sake of filling it in. That's kind of what they're doing with Red Cedar. Scale back the project, but the same footprint. Just my 2 cents of course.
If they're downsizing the project I'd almost rather them have more parkland and fewer taller buildings. Perhaps create baseball/softball complex on part of the land (similar to the East Lansing soccer complex). Seemed like this thing was advertised as a transformative project (which is leading to some of the heightened expectations) rather it's kind of like a student housing complex, similar to ones in the suburbs.
I'm trying to figure out what exactly was "downsized" as I'm looking back at the plans from two years ago, or so, and it basically calls for the same thing they are proposing, now. In fact, this version has more market-rate housing (170 units vs. 129 units). The mixing of housing is abou the same as its always been with the difference I think being that the market-rate stuff was originally supposed to be town homes, but will now be in multi-family buildings. The student housing component hasn't change, I don't think.
I think maybe it's the hotels which have been downsized. They were originally proposed significantly taller. A big problem was this taking so long, which allowed so many other hotels to be built in this area of the metro since they proposed this. It might also be that the "downsizing" is the materials, too.
I now have greater "expectations" for the drain project. I think that will be more transformative, and benefit the surrounding areas making the land [like Sears and Sawyer's] more desirable for development. They have built buildings in Lansing that are nicer than they had to be, look at the Capitol Building. the Library or the Water Works. I hope the city will make sure that this will be an attractive addition to our community, after all, we are being asked to put a lot of money into the project we should at least have something great to look at as we drive by. It is a bit nicer than Eastwood!
Where I was going with "downsized" was the original price tag of $380 M reduced to $242 M. From the LSJ on Feb 23: "The developers of a $242 million project proposed at the site of the former Red Cedar Golf Course are asking the city to kick in more than $10 million to the scaled-down project. ... The cost of the project — called the Red Cedar Renaissance — was initially pegged at $380 million.
"Given the substantial costs of the site's infrastructure, we worked very hard to value-engineer those costs by almost half," Christopher Stralkowski, Ferguson Development's executive project manager, said in a Friday email."
Maybe it has the same number of bedrooms, etc. I shouldn't be assuming, but that drop in cost would seem to be possible by constructing shorter buildings (more spread out) with more vinyl-type siding, etc.
gdbinlansing, yes the drain project is a nice element of this. I was just hoping that the Red Cedar project would be more of the ultimate development (if that makes sense) rather than mainly a catalyst for development elsewhere (at Sawyer's/Sears etc).
No, I knew what you were talking about. I was just randomly musing on how they brought the price down given that they really didn't take any major structures out. So I mused that maybe they downsized the hotel and cut back on expensive materials.
They ended up having to downsize it because the city and county weren't going to take the risk they were asking for originally. They were originally asking for the city to bond for $35 million and that's now been lowered to just under $11 with the brownfield plan paying off the bonds instead of some other city/county source. I'm glad they decided to go through with the project, anyway.
I think the mix of retail and restaurants this project will reportedly have will go a long way in determining how impactful the entire project is. Sorry if I missed it, but do we know what restaurants/retail are planned or the branding of the two hotels in this latest plan? I agree with all the time that has passed on this project, other hotels have been built in the area (esp Eastwood area) and the SkyView apts across the street - which I believe was announced later but certainly finished sooner - have impacted the scope of this project.
I remember the signature hotel still being a Hyatt, but who knows if they've waited this long? The City Pulse has more renderings, which look a bit better.
I keep saying it, but I'm really happy about the siteplan. The grand entrance is grander than it was. The wetlands area has also been improved. It looks like they'd have it hold more water. Here was the land just a few days ago:
I like the City Pulse article, it presented the whole concept in greater detail. It seems like these developers are very determined to make this happen. Along with the drain commissioner's very hopeful description of waterfalls streams gardens parks and wildlife and fish in the Red Cedar, it looks like Lansing is going to have a quite fantastic new center. I liked what they said about the siding materials being traditional with no crazy colors which I hope means high quality but not flashy. They said they want to build something that will be transformative and worthy of the space on Michigan Avenue. The other developments these guys have built look good, so now I am feeling better about all of this. I wish they could get on with it sooner than the planned schedule. I see that there will be a time for citizens to offer input, maybe that would be a good time to address the pedestrian/bike path crossing issues. I am also wondering about the whole of Michigan Ave. and sidewalks on the Frandor side. Does this plan include rebuilding all of these too?
It was an interesting note in the interview with the developer he said something like " there are going to be big things happening on the river downtown, according to the mayor". I wonder what those things might be?
I'm fairly happy with this new site plan besides the assisted living facility. It's a little disappointing to see the scaled down main hotel, but it's only disappointing relative to the inflated expectations of a 10+ floor hotel.
I agree that the big detractor here is the architecture, it's bad to the point that I assume what we're seeing here is placeholder designs. I can accept quality buildings with mediocre architecture but it at least has to be varied architecture. All the buildings look the same, there's no differentiation in design and that's a big problem for the look of this project. With only three buildings in the core development they should all look significantly different, and it'd be better if they split the buildings up somehow to add more variation. It doesn't look like a city center or dynamic urban district, it looks like a cold, monolithic complex. Hopefully these really are placeholder designs but if not it's still an easy fix, if it does get built like the renderings show it will be very, very disappointing.
Comments
MichMatters, I see your points about the floodplain, and of course that's the one factor that has not changed about the project. My complaints are similar, the inexpensive building materials and plain architecture. Because come on - we're supposed to settle for just anything. I guess I would rather they build fewer slightly taller buildings. Even if it had to be build in two phases. For instance Marketplace - instead of building in phases - filling the entire property with 2-story structures just for the sake of filling it in. That's kind of what they're doing with Red Cedar. Scale back the project, but the same footprint. Just my 2 cents of course.
If they're downsizing the project I'd almost rather them have more parkland and fewer taller buildings. Perhaps create baseball/softball complex on part of the land (similar to the East Lansing soccer complex). Seemed like this thing was advertised as a transformative project (which is leading to some of the heightened expectations) rather it's kind of like a student housing complex, similar to ones in the suburbs.
I'm trying to figure out what exactly was "downsized" as I'm looking back at the plans from two years ago, or so, and it basically calls for the same thing they are proposing, now. In fact, this version has more market-rate housing (170 units vs. 129 units). The mixing of housing is abou the same as its always been with the difference I think being that the market-rate stuff was originally supposed to be town homes, but will now be in multi-family buildings. The student housing component hasn't change, I don't think.
I think maybe it's the hotels which have been downsized. They were originally proposed significantly taller. A big problem was this taking so long, which allowed so many other hotels to be built in this area of the metro since they proposed this. It might also be that the "downsizing" is the materials, too.
Ugh, I don't like how they are teasing us. lol
I now have greater "expectations" for the drain project. I think that will be more transformative, and benefit the surrounding areas making the land [like Sears and Sawyer's] more desirable for development. They have built buildings in Lansing that are nicer than they had to be, look at the Capitol Building. the Library or the Water Works. I hope the city will make sure that this will be an attractive addition to our community, after all, we are being asked to put a lot of money into the project we should at least have something great to look at as we drive by. It is a bit nicer than Eastwood!
Where I was going with "downsized" was the original price tag of $380 M reduced to $242 M. From the LSJ on Feb 23: "The developers of a $242 million project proposed at the site of the former Red Cedar Golf Course are asking the city to kick in more than $10 million to the scaled-down project. ... The cost of the project — called the Red Cedar Renaissance — was initially pegged at $380 million.
"Given the substantial costs of the site's infrastructure, we worked very hard to value-engineer those costs by almost half," Christopher Stralkowski, Ferguson Development's executive project manager, said in a Friday email."
Maybe it has the same number of bedrooms, etc. I shouldn't be assuming, but that drop in cost would seem to be possible by constructing shorter buildings (more spread out) with more vinyl-type siding, etc.
gdbinlansing, yes the drain project is a nice element of this. I was just hoping that the Red Cedar project would be more of the ultimate development (if that makes sense) rather than mainly a catalyst for development elsewhere (at Sawyer's/Sears etc).
No, I knew what you were talking about. I was just randomly musing on how they brought the price down given that they really didn't take any major structures out. So I mused that maybe they downsized the hotel and cut back on expensive materials.
They ended up having to downsize it because the city and county weren't going to take the risk they were asking for originally. They were originally asking for the city to bond for $35 million and that's now been lowered to just under $11 with the brownfield plan paying off the bonds instead of some other city/county source. I'm glad they decided to go through with the project, anyway.
I think the mix of retail and restaurants this project will reportedly have will go a long way in determining how impactful the entire project is. Sorry if I missed it, but do we know what restaurants/retail are planned or the branding of the two hotels in this latest plan? I agree with all the time that has passed on this project, other hotels have been built in the area (esp Eastwood area) and the SkyView apts across the street - which I believe was announced later but certainly finished sooner - have impacted the scope of this project.
I remember the signature hotel still being a Hyatt, but who knows if they've waited this long? The City Pulse has more renderings, which look a bit better.
I keep saying it, but I'm really happy about the siteplan. The grand entrance is grander than it was. The wetlands area has also been improved. It looks like they'd have it hold more water. Here was the land just a few days ago:
I like the City Pulse article, it presented the whole concept in greater detail. It seems like these developers are very determined to make this happen. Along with the drain commissioner's very hopeful description of waterfalls streams gardens parks and wildlife and fish in the Red Cedar, it looks like Lansing is going to have a quite fantastic new center. I liked what they said about the siding materials being traditional with no crazy colors which I hope means high quality but not flashy. They said they want to build something that will be transformative and worthy of the space on Michigan Avenue. The other developments these guys have built look good, so now I am feeling better about all of this. I wish they could get on with it sooner than the planned schedule. I see that there will be a time for citizens to offer input, maybe that would be a good time to address the pedestrian/bike path crossing issues. I am also wondering about the whole of Michigan Ave. and sidewalks on the Frandor side. Does this plan include rebuilding all of these too?
It was an interesting note in the interview with the developer he said something like " there are going to be big things happening on the river downtown, according to the mayor". I wonder what those things might be?
I'm fairly happy with this new site plan besides the assisted living facility. It's a little disappointing to see the scaled down main hotel, but it's only disappointing relative to the inflated expectations of a 10+ floor hotel.
I agree that the big detractor here is the architecture, it's bad to the point that I assume what we're seeing here is placeholder designs. I can accept quality buildings with mediocre architecture but it at least has to be varied architecture. All the buildings look the same, there's no differentiation in design and that's a big problem for the look of this project. With only three buildings in the core development they should all look significantly different, and it'd be better if they split the buildings up somehow to add more variation. It doesn't look like a city center or dynamic urban district, it looks like a cold, monolithic complex. Hopefully these really are placeholder designs but if not it's still an easy fix, if it does get built like the renderings show it will be very, very disappointing.