You're right about the size of Saginaw, it is 5 lanes. I guess I was assuming they'd still need a full 5 lanes to handle the traffic, but maybe they wouldn't.
Saginaw/Oakland where they are one way are two of the busiest streets in the Lansing Area. At rush hour, or virtually any time during the day, during the week they are clogged with cars. There is no reasonable way to change them back into two ways without doing a major project, like a 6 lane boulevard similar to MLK. I wish they could be turned back into two ways, so downtown could more easily expand north, but I think the streets are just too busy.
But, that's always an argument against road diets, that is that the street is now too busy to turn it back. It's the same kind of flawed premise behind the idea that to relieve congestion that you widen roads. It's proven that that creates more congestion. Is there any study showing that Lansing needs two, one-way freeways along the northside of downtown?
I can tell you the first thing visitors or new people to Lansing remark on to me is the size of the roads (and the amount of one-way roads) for a city so small. Saginaw/Oakland only make sense if we didn't already have a 496; but we do.
Yeah, but Saginaw/Oakland are the only major east/west throughfare in the Lansing area, all the other roads have been chopped up too much to compensate, like Michigan, St Joe, ect...
Either way they would have make one a 5 lane and one a three lane, which isn't a whole lot better than being a one way.
MDOT has its organizational chart online: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/orgchart011603_55427_7.pdf.
Lansing is in the "University Region", headed by Mark Chaput (ChaputM@michigan.gov), who reports to Chief Operating Officer Larry Tibbits (TibbitsL@michigan.gov).
As a resident of the Saginaw/Oakland area, I can say that during rush hour, traffic is heavy and generally traveling over the posted speed of 35 MPH. But, during non-rush hour, traffic can be very thin to non-existent and with a 4+ one-way street traffic moves in general in great excess of 35 MPH. I see it so often when cars get to the City of Lansing sign heading into the city near the underpass for the rail line, they hit the accelerator, despite the posted speed actually decreasing there!
I'm going to admit to being somewhat ignorant on traffic studies, modeling schemes, etc. I am curious, however, how W. Saginaw Street in Lansing and Delta Twps. can be 2 lanes in each direction w/ a center turn lane and functional adequately whereas in the City the same street needs to be 4+ lanes in each direction? I have a hard time believing that the street collects enough traffic around the now-defunct GM factories to warrant the doubling of lanes...
As a resident of Delta Township, I agree with your assessment of Saginaw. Our stretch is always busier than what I see down town. But I'll acknowledge that I'm not usually downtown during rush hours.
The reason it needs to be four lanes is because during both rush hours, and virtually any time during a weekday, all the traffic coming from the East and West travels through the one way stretches. That means A LOT of traffic, like I said I thik the bes way to handle that corridor is to imitate the divided section of MLK.
schurymi, thanks for the email addresses. You also make a very good point about the changes in traffic with the entire GM complex on the westside now gone. I also wonder the same thing about Saginaw being two ways through both East Lansing and Delta Township, but being forced onto even higher speed roads once they reach the Lansing border. I think it's quite clear that the roads were built primarily for a suburban commuter population to rush them in and out of the city. That has been regarded as a failed experiment and concept in urban areas years ago. I really hope to read up on this quite a bit more.
schurymi,
Are you connected to the NorthWest Initiative in any way? I ask because the PFD for the "road diet" has a an article from the LSJ dated 1965. It's too small and blury to read, and I've always been interested in the details behind the creation of the Saginaw/Oakland corridor.
LMich, I provided NorthWest Initiative with the LSJ story, which I got from the local history librarian at CADL. While not the complete article, I've placed what I have on flickr at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/25425377@N07/2396580882/
Comments
I can tell you the first thing visitors or new people to Lansing remark on to me is the size of the roads (and the amount of one-way roads) for a city so small. Saginaw/Oakland only make sense if we didn't already have a 496; but we do.
Either way they would have make one a 5 lane and one a three lane, which isn't a whole lot better than being a one way.
Lansing is in the "University Region", headed by Mark Chaput (ChaputM@michigan.gov), who reports to Chief Operating Officer Larry Tibbits (TibbitsL@michigan.gov).
As a resident of the Saginaw/Oakland area, I can say that during rush hour, traffic is heavy and generally traveling over the posted speed of 35 MPH. But, during non-rush hour, traffic can be very thin to non-existent and with a 4+ one-way street traffic moves in general in great excess of 35 MPH. I see it so often when cars get to the City of Lansing sign heading into the city near the underpass for the rail line, they hit the accelerator, despite the posted speed actually decreasing there!
I'm going to admit to being somewhat ignorant on traffic studies, modeling schemes, etc. I am curious, however, how W. Saginaw Street in Lansing and Delta Twps. can be 2 lanes in each direction w/ a center turn lane and functional adequately whereas in the City the same street needs to be 4+ lanes in each direction? I have a hard time believing that the street collects enough traffic around the now-defunct GM factories to warrant the doubling of lanes...
schurymi,
Are you connected to the NorthWest Initiative in any way? I ask because the PFD for the "road diet" has a an article from the LSJ dated 1965. It's too small and blury to read, and I've always been interested in the details behind the creation of the Saginaw/Oakland corridor.