I'm not going to hide my reasons for living here (good job and good potential for growth) and I don't think it changes anything.
My interest in Lansing is to see it develop into a great urban community, good mass transit, walkability, good skyline for a city this size, decreased urban sprawl, good entertainment, etc. By fair-weather fan I mean I have no family here, wasn't born or raised here, so I don't have a reason to stay here except I like it and I think it provides the type of community I want to live in and that means I'm not going to stick it out for 10-15 years if that type of community doesn't exist. Make no mistake, this is more than a playground, I've made the commitment to live here instead of taking a job in Chicago, and that is precisely the reason I'm maybe a little over dramatic about this project. I want to see it grow and develop into something great and I think the potential for that is real based on current projects already completed. But that isn't going to happen, at least certainly not in the next 10 years, unless people make it happen.
I realize probably everyone is in favor of this project on this forum and most projects on the horizon, as I ended my earlier post saying I know I'm preaching to the choir; however, sometimes the choir has to do more than just sing to get things accomplished, and that's my only point.
Rant on, Binto, rant on! It makes the discussion boards all that more interesting. If we all agreed 100% of the time with one another’s opinions what a boring read it would be. Without a doubt, this IS an important issue. My concern is people may talk themselves into believing that this deal is THE make or break decision for Downtown Lansing’s future. We’ve come a long ways over the last decade; even more so in the last year. I wouldn’t want to see our spirits broken should Council not support this one development proposal, albeit a significant proposal. Council will do whatever it is that council wants to do… that’s the nature of politics. Let’s all hope they make the best choice for Lansing. If they don’t, then you know what you’ve got to do… VOTE!! (as in vote 'em out!)
It was a hard call, but the job here, plus some small perks here taken together made the decision. But I have to admit that when visiting my friend, who works on Wacker Drive (a block or two from Sears Tower and his office can be seen in Batman Begins and The Dark Knight), I get a tiny bit jealous. But, he could never afford the equivalent of my loft in downtown Chitown :) so that kinda eases it.
And I guess alot of my energy has been wrongly presented (on my part) as focused on the project failing and the possible implications that come with that; as opposed to alot of my passion on this is actually derived from being really excited to see that area-BallPark North and Market Place in conjunction with AF-go up. I think it's going to make a really big positive impact on the area so I really want it to happen.
I realize a no-vote on this isn't going to stop every development, but it will slow things, and being that I'm only going to be a "young professional" for so long, and I want to spend these years in an urban area like what I believe Lansing will be in 5 years if these projects go through, I'm feeling a bit more of a time-crunch and maybe desperation than others which is making me a little more dramatic...but hey, if my drama is adding to the fun here, I'm happy to be apart.
*Seriously though, we don't know eachother here so if I do get annoying and I need to shut up, don't hold back*
With all due respect, Texigander, you vastly underestimate the fragility of the economic momentum we've managed to get rolling in our downtown in the last two years. In this economy, the notion that if this project fails another will be along shortly to take its place is far from certain and even improbable in the short term. Other than Gillespie and a handful of other highly motivated local investors who believe in making things happen here, there are no other developers waiting in the wings and champing at the bit to drop $50 or $100 million into new projects in Lansing, Michigan. The view from Texas may look a bit different, but from here in Lansing, the failure of this project, combined with some of the behind-the-scenes City Council political machinations (of which you and LMich are evidently unaware), could easily conspire to doom downtown development well into the next decade. For those of us who are busting our tails trying to rev up this city, we're not willing to adopt your laid back attitude that development will come around when it gets around. Sorry, but that's not good enough for us or for Lansing. If that's too theatrical or overly dramatic for your taste, so be it.
Wow. This is the essence of a forum. Although we wish there was some sort of wand that could be waived and we could see the end result, but we cant.
The thing about momentum, and I say this because I was the ED for Reo Town last year when we had tons of momentum. Businesses inquiring about moving in, more foot traffic than since the factory days, 4 huge events etc. It wasnt by any means the toast of the town, but it had momentum. Then a thing happened and it all fell apart. This year there was one event, the Reo Town bike show. There is no Music Festival and other events. Cadillac Club transformed from a struggling resturant into an "issue" and 3 other businesses folded or moved.
I say that to say that we are in between (in my opinion) what LMich & Randy believe. If this falters we lose the momentum that will be numbing, but not crippling. Its not the end all be all. Yet that loss of momentum, like in Reo Town, may have unforseen consequences that will indeed make things more difficult to attract prospective developers for God knows how long. One thing that I have learned is that developers are very sensitive when it comes to these types of setbacks and get a bit pouty if they dont receive what they think they should. Whether or not thats right or not, doesnt make much of a difference if multiple other developments get scratched because Gillespe gets upset at this vote.
In conclusion, I think it prudent of us to voice our concerns to the appropriate individuals. The power has always been in the hands of the people and thus our future is as well. Which wheel is going to squeak the loudest?
I'm new here but migrated from UrbanPlanet where I've kept tabs on Lansing since I left E.L. almost a decade ago. My parents still live in East Lansing, so I obviously have a vested interest in the metro. Anyhow, after seeing how lively this site is and how much more action it gets than UrbanPlanet (no offense, UP), I decided to sign up here.
Since everyone else is making their opinion known, of course I am for the Market and the other two developments tied into it. I do think that it will be a huge blow to growth in Lansing if it doesn't pass, but it won't be the nail in the coffin that some say. However, I think even a 'blow' to growth would be disastrous. If growth slows even a little bit, the critical mass will be even farther away, and another surge will take what, 5? 10 years? If the ball stops rolling or even slows down, we have to do everything we have already done with this current revival to start it going again.
I just wanted to address LMich's earlier comment as well. You mentioned that credibility was lost if you're a 'fair weather' fan... I understand what you're saying, but I think these fair weather fans are the very people we should be listening to. Isn't it this group, the educated, young professionals with urban ideas and progressive thinking the ones that Lansing incessantly talks about NEEDING to attract? These are the people that might, like micro, move here for a job etc., but it is our job to keep them here. Maybe they don't have the same 'best interest' as you do in Lansing at heart, but it is in OUR 'best interest' to keep them interested at all! Without people who take a chance on Lansing, we'll never grow the numbers dedicated to Lansing's best interest. Micro represents the exact group of people that Lansing has been trying to attract for years, and is finally able to do it. But, like he says, people moving to the area don't have the ties, the devotion, etc. to Lansing that others do, but that's all the more reason to cater to them. If Chicago and New York didn't cater to visitors and those wishing to flock to them, and only catered to residents with its 'best interest' at heart, they'd implode. Any thriving, urban city has to attract fresh meat - sophisticated, urbane, and educated newcomers like Micro, that come here for a job or school, and stay because Lansing wins them over. I think Micro sums up Lansing's major problem very well - we're competing with not just Chicago, but Grand Rapids, Cleveland, Columbus, Milwaukee, and the other 'urban revival' communities around the midwest. I think that has to inform our call to action, to make the city what we want for ourselves. What are we going to do to make sure it's Lansing they choose instead?
I'll say that I realized the risk in putting my personal story out there. But I did so because I wanted people to see that the work that's already been done to attract young professionals is in fact working. Often, I think people think that when they hear the mayor or other developers talk about attracting this group they blow it off as just talk, a dream or BS. So I wanted to put myself out there to say it's not just talk, that what's been happening can and is attracting people who aren't coming here just cause they have family here and with continued improvement we WILL attract more.
Again, I have calmed down a bit with the end of times talk, and I completely agree that this WON'T be the nail in the coffin. But my worry, and I think a very legitimate one, is how long will it take to recover from this potential setback. And as I've already said, even though I'm a "fair weather fan" I'm not going to go running out the door in the next couple of months if this doesn't pass, I will stick out it for a while longer, but if in the next 1-2 years 2-3 more projects fall apart (Such as BallPark North, Capitol Club and Kalamazoo Gateway), that is when I'll have to reconsider whether I want to stick around. So to be clear, I'm not taking a threat approach to the City Market in which "if they vote no I'll leave", but more of a concern for how this will affect growth in the next 3-5 years. I have no doubt that Lansing would rebound from a defeat on this project in 10-15 years, but for me personally, I don't know if I can stick around that long to see it happen.
Also, one thing that is frustrating to me about this, is as a few people pointed out at the City Council meeting, the vast majority of the complaints presented by the opponents, and one's I think are fair arguments, were detailed contractual things that could be worked out and moved forward.
I saw this article today and I wonder what people here think about this issue? I really am not knowledgable/experienced with this topic so I don't know what to think.
http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080806/NEWS03/808060352/1004/NEWS03
Point taken, LMich, and in rereading my post I thought it might come off more of a critique of your statement than I meant. I completely agree with what you're saying, but I think our focuses are just different. I think that for any city to be successful there needs to be a healthy balance of both of our positions. I lived in East Lansing for 20 years, went to classes at LCC, and am a huge proponent of the area, and that's precisely what fuels my desire to introduce new people to the city. I don't think anyone has suggested alienating the current residents - as you said, you yourself have supported most every downtown development proposal, so I don't think anything said here has been advocating that. In any gentrification there will be 'losers', often the former residents of an area and the poor. I don't think that equals alienating the residents, but it is a big concern obviously. I also think it's a two-way street. Lansing residents that aren't affected 'directly' by developments like these still benefit. More choices, more ameneties, more options, more recreation, more diversity...The trust fund babies (though I kinda object to that - it's not their fault they have a trust fund ;-) ) should step out of the core and explore, but the residents that don't think they benefit from a strong core would suffer (see: Flint, etc.) if the momentum dies. I understand what you're saying though - there is a Lansing outside downtown and the development going on, and there will always be that thriving world. That's why I love developments like this though - they draw the new people in, who, while they may be the 'me' generation or trust fund babies, can then do the 'discover your own city' walks, or the art tours, or trips to the local markets and community centers, and discover the rest of Lansing. I live in New York City now, and ask any tourist what they love, it will be the theaters and Times Square and all the central attractions that get people here in the first place. But any resident will tell a different story - one of the neighborhoods and the side markets and the street fairs that people don't usually see until they live here. But, no one would want to move here in the first place without the central attractions. I guess that's how I formed my opinion and why I feel so passionately about it. I want people to discover the Lansing that both you and I know, and become part of it, largely because of exactly what you said - we don't want it to become another Flint. I don't think anyone is saying that Lansing would cease to exist, but there are obviously different opinions on how a failed Market Place would impact the momentum downtown. I know there's a whole Lansing out there that doesn't get talked about on these forums, but when people are attracted by an awesome core, they'll discover the rest that surrounds it. In any case, I hope I didn't offend you at all - I know your efforts and commitment from over on Urban Planet and you're a great asset to Lansing. Long story short, I think it's pretty clear Market Place will pass, and no one can say the effect it would have if it didn't (and hopefully we'll never have to find out). I didn't mean to be confrontational, just put in a word for the newbie - guess I'm just happy to have another Lansing convert
Comments
My interest in Lansing is to see it develop into a great urban community, good mass transit, walkability, good skyline for a city this size, decreased urban sprawl, good entertainment, etc. By fair-weather fan I mean I have no family here, wasn't born or raised here, so I don't have a reason to stay here except I like it and I think it provides the type of community I want to live in and that means I'm not going to stick it out for 10-15 years if that type of community doesn't exist. Make no mistake, this is more than a playground, I've made the commitment to live here instead of taking a job in Chicago, and that is precisely the reason I'm maybe a little over dramatic about this project. I want to see it grow and develop into something great and I think the potential for that is real based on current projects already completed. But that isn't going to happen, at least certainly not in the next 10 years, unless people make it happen.
I realize probably everyone is in favor of this project on this forum and most projects on the horizon, as I ended my earlier post saying I know I'm preaching to the choir; however, sometimes the choir has to do more than just sing to get things accomplished, and that's my only point.
Lansing does have a lot of potential and I must admit that I miss the area. It will always be home.
And I guess alot of my energy has been wrongly presented (on my part) as focused on the project failing and the possible implications that come with that; as opposed to alot of my passion on this is actually derived from being really excited to see that area-BallPark North and Market Place in conjunction with AF-go up. I think it's going to make a really big positive impact on the area so I really want it to happen.
I realize a no-vote on this isn't going to stop every development, but it will slow things, and being that I'm only going to be a "young professional" for so long, and I want to spend these years in an urban area like what I believe Lansing will be in 5 years if these projects go through, I'm feeling a bit more of a time-crunch and maybe desperation than others which is making me a little more dramatic...but hey, if my drama is adding to the fun here, I'm happy to be apart.
*Seriously though, we don't know eachother here so if I do get annoying and I need to shut up, don't hold back*
The thing about momentum, and I say this because I was the ED for Reo Town last year when we had tons of momentum. Businesses inquiring about moving in, more foot traffic than since the factory days, 4 huge events etc. It wasnt by any means the toast of the town, but it had momentum. Then a thing happened and it all fell apart. This year there was one event, the Reo Town bike show. There is no Music Festival and other events. Cadillac Club transformed from a struggling resturant into an "issue" and 3 other businesses folded or moved.
I say that to say that we are in between (in my opinion) what LMich & Randy believe. If this falters we lose the momentum that will be numbing, but not crippling. Its not the end all be all. Yet that loss of momentum, like in Reo Town, may have unforseen consequences that will indeed make things more difficult to attract prospective developers for God knows how long. One thing that I have learned is that developers are very sensitive when it comes to these types of setbacks and get a bit pouty if they dont receive what they think they should. Whether or not thats right or not, doesnt make much of a difference if multiple other developments get scratched because Gillespe gets upset at this vote.
In conclusion, I think it prudent of us to voice our concerns to the appropriate individuals. The power has always been in the hands of the people and thus our future is as well. Which wheel is going to squeak the loudest?
Love this forum!
Since everyone else is making their opinion known, of course I am for the Market and the other two developments tied into it. I do think that it will be a huge blow to growth in Lansing if it doesn't pass, but it won't be the nail in the coffin that some say. However, I think even a 'blow' to growth would be disastrous. If growth slows even a little bit, the critical mass will be even farther away, and another surge will take what, 5? 10 years? If the ball stops rolling or even slows down, we have to do everything we have already done with this current revival to start it going again.
I just wanted to address LMich's earlier comment as well. You mentioned that credibility was lost if you're a 'fair weather' fan... I understand what you're saying, but I think these fair weather fans are the very people we should be listening to. Isn't it this group, the educated, young professionals with urban ideas and progressive thinking the ones that Lansing incessantly talks about NEEDING to attract? These are the people that might, like micro, move here for a job etc., but it is our job to keep them here. Maybe they don't have the same 'best interest' as you do in Lansing at heart, but it is in OUR 'best interest' to keep them interested at all! Without people who take a chance on Lansing, we'll never grow the numbers dedicated to Lansing's best interest. Micro represents the exact group of people that Lansing has been trying to attract for years, and is finally able to do it. But, like he says, people moving to the area don't have the ties, the devotion, etc. to Lansing that others do, but that's all the more reason to cater to them. If Chicago and New York didn't cater to visitors and those wishing to flock to them, and only catered to residents with its 'best interest' at heart, they'd implode. Any thriving, urban city has to attract fresh meat - sophisticated, urbane, and educated newcomers like Micro, that come here for a job or school, and stay because Lansing wins them over. I think Micro sums up Lansing's major problem very well - we're competing with not just Chicago, but Grand Rapids, Cleveland, Columbus, Milwaukee, and the other 'urban revival' communities around the midwest. I think that has to inform our call to action, to make the city what we want for ourselves. What are we going to do to make sure it's Lansing they choose instead?
Again, I have calmed down a bit with the end of times talk, and I completely agree that this WON'T be the nail in the coffin. But my worry, and I think a very legitimate one, is how long will it take to recover from this potential setback. And as I've already said, even though I'm a "fair weather fan" I'm not going to go running out the door in the next couple of months if this doesn't pass, I will stick out it for a while longer, but if in the next 1-2 years 2-3 more projects fall apart (Such as BallPark North, Capitol Club and Kalamazoo Gateway), that is when I'll have to reconsider whether I want to stick around. So to be clear, I'm not taking a threat approach to the City Market in which "if they vote no I'll leave", but more of a concern for how this will affect growth in the next 3-5 years. I have no doubt that Lansing would rebound from a defeat on this project in 10-15 years, but for me personally, I don't know if I can stick around that long to see it happen.
Also, one thing that is frustrating to me about this, is as a few people pointed out at the City Council meeting, the vast majority of the complaints presented by the opponents, and one's I think are fair arguments, were detailed contractual things that could be worked out and moved forward.
I saw this article today and I wonder what people here think about this issue? I really am not knowledgable/experienced with this topic so I don't know what to think.
http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080806/NEWS03/808060352/1004/NEWS03