@MJ I do have to agree with MichMatters that the multiple posts in a row have to stop, that's common internet etiquette. To reply to your posts...
I guess we just fundamentally disagree on what this land should be used for and whether 60 acres of parkland would be better overall than half developed and half park. I'm not a fan of the architecture of Red Cedar Renaissance and I'm no fan of the amount of surface parking. But the site plan and road layout are decent and the adjacent park will be great, especially since it's tied into a dense development so people will actually use it. If the development is successful the surface lots will be developed with bigger and better buildings than the original ones and the success should make banks more comfortable lending money for other projects in the area.
Some of the things you mention in your phase 5, the infill next to 127 and the walkable Clippert St in particular, will become immediately feasible with a successful Red Cedar project. Your overall vision for Frandor is one shared by me and others here along with city planners. Your vision and massings are realistic and in line with what I expect the area to become, Red Cedar is one piece of that and makes for a good running start to the transformation.
Hmm, I don’t know what format you all are viewing this website, but for me reading through multiple posts is a simple as scrolling down the page. Am I missing something?
Considering that area of Lansing Township still exists entirely for tax dodging purposes... I doubt they'll want to merge into either city anytime soon. I agree that one of the cities should take control of it (Lansing > East Lansing) because it's so confusing as to who to ask to fix what around there and they all collectively pass the buck.
@MJ one issue is post count. Forums pages are determined by # of pages. So if you post 10 short posts, that is all the reader sees on a page. Whereas if that was condensed into one post, there would be more content.
Additionally, it really is bad form. Not only is it tedious to see the constant interruptions in the text, but it tends to convey a scattered statement rather than a cohesive idea.
Web forums are a different animal than social media. Posts shouldn't be viewed as a rapid fire chat, but as a slower conversation. It's the difference between fox and friends and meet the press.
The corridor the 127 is built on was called "The Pinetree Corridor" before they built the highway. That is easy to imagine as much of this area is still forested. Perhaps we could get the State plant[or let us plant] a forest of pine trees along both sides of 127. Growing a nice new "Pinetree Corridor" that would beautify the hillsides. If the Township would cooperate perhaps a new street plan for the east side and north side of Frandor, I'm not sure how they could untangle the mess of cross streets and curb cuts but it very confusing and ugly right now. A safe and beautiful pedestrian/bike path that connects to the River trail via the Red Cedar Renaissance paths on Clippert and Howard Streets along the sides of the highway at street level would be really nice. You could ride the River Trail out to Frandor and connect to the new Cross Town trail [does it have a name?] and get right back downtown crossing just a few streets. Does the subject of annexing the Lansing Township areas on the east side ever come up?
I think it has come up before but the charter township law makes it very hard for Lansing or East Lansing to forcibly annex the land. There would have to be enough political will to sue them for those portions unless they voluntarily gave it up.
It's funny we're talking about this because I was reading about other townships in and around Detroit yesterday, notably Royal Oak Township and Novi Township. These are small pockets of nothing surrounding by somethings, and you can see how the city of Novi sued Novi Township to annex a bunch of snippets of land. There is only a 36 acre parcel consisting of one subdivision that can be called Novi Township.
So in summary I would say that if that area of Lansing Township becomes valuable enough for either Lansing or East Lansing I could see them trying to forcibly take the land for planning purposes. Or do a 50 year lease through a 425 agreement.
The City Pulse has an article about this development online. It offers views from both sides of the incentive issue. I think it pretty clearly explains why it will be a good investment for the city, and that we would have to spend a great deal of money for the drain project even if there were no development, to stop pollution from going into the Red Cedar. Better to have both a clean drain system and river and new buildings generating business and paying taxes.
The guy from Columbus is rather annoying and maybe should put a lock on it. I have never been there, is it really "all that"? It sounds like a business paradise where taxpayers love to give their money away!:} Yes they have some tall buildings but I do not think I could identify an untitled photo as Columbus by their skyline. Maybe he slipped on some buckeye nuts hit his head and can't stop talking, buckeye nuts are very dangerous!
Comments
Again, did all of this need to be in seperate posts? I don't get why this is so hard to understand. I'm done for awhile.
@MJ I do have to agree with MichMatters that the multiple posts in a row have to stop, that's common internet etiquette. To reply to your posts...
I guess we just fundamentally disagree on what this land should be used for and whether 60 acres of parkland would be better overall than half developed and half park. I'm not a fan of the architecture of Red Cedar Renaissance and I'm no fan of the amount of surface parking. But the site plan and road layout are decent and the adjacent park will be great, especially since it's tied into a dense development so people will actually use it. If the development is successful the surface lots will be developed with bigger and better buildings than the original ones and the success should make banks more comfortable lending money for other projects in the area.
Some of the things you mention in your phase 5, the infill next to 127 and the walkable Clippert St in particular, will become immediately feasible with a successful Red Cedar project. Your overall vision for Frandor is one shared by me and others here along with city planners. Your vision and massings are realistic and in line with what I expect the area to become, Red Cedar is one piece of that and makes for a good running start to the transformation.
Those were really cool renderings of what could be in that area. Nice vision casting.
And thanks Sabatoa! Thanks Jared!
Considering that area of Lansing Township still exists entirely for tax dodging purposes... I doubt they'll want to merge into either city anytime soon. I agree that one of the cities should take control of it (Lansing > East Lansing) because it's so confusing as to who to ask to fix what around there and they all collectively pass the buck.
Additionally, it really is bad form. Not only is it tedious to see the constant interruptions in the text, but it tends to convey a scattered statement rather than a cohesive idea.
Web forums are a different animal than social media. Posts shouldn't be viewed as a rapid fire chat, but as a slower conversation. It's the difference between fox and friends and meet the press.
The corridor the 127 is built on was called "The Pinetree Corridor" before they built the highway. That is easy to imagine as much of this area is still forested. Perhaps we could get the State plant[or let us plant] a forest of pine trees along both sides of 127. Growing a nice new "Pinetree Corridor" that would beautify the hillsides. If the Township would cooperate perhaps a new street plan for the east side and north side of Frandor, I'm not sure how they could untangle the mess of cross streets and curb cuts but it very confusing and ugly right now. A safe and beautiful pedestrian/bike path that connects to the River trail via the Red Cedar Renaissance paths on Clippert and Howard Streets along the sides of the highway at street level would be really nice. You could ride the River Trail out to Frandor and connect to the new Cross Town trail [does it have a name?] and get right back downtown crossing just a few streets. Does the subject of annexing the Lansing Township areas on the east side ever come up?
I think it has come up before but the charter township law makes it very hard for Lansing or East Lansing to forcibly annex the land. There would have to be enough political will to sue them for those portions unless they voluntarily gave it up.
It's funny we're talking about this because I was reading about other townships in and around Detroit yesterday, notably Royal Oak Township and Novi Township. These are small pockets of nothing surrounding by somethings, and you can see how the city of Novi sued Novi Township to annex a bunch of snippets of land. There is only a 36 acre parcel consisting of one subdivision that can be called Novi Township.
http://northvillehistory.org/dtSearch/DTSearch/NorthvilleRecord/1981-1990S/1982-12-15-0014.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novi_Township,_Michigan
So in summary I would say that if that area of Lansing Township becomes valuable enough for either Lansing or East Lansing I could see them trying to forcibly take the land for planning purposes. Or do a 50 year lease through a 425 agreement.
Seems like maybe just asking might work, they do not seem to care much about that area.
The City Pulse has an article about this development online. It offers views from both sides of the incentive issue. I think it pretty clearly explains why it will be a good investment for the city, and that we would have to spend a great deal of money for the drain project even if there were no development, to stop pollution from going into the Red Cedar. Better to have both a clean drain system and river and new buildings generating business and paying taxes.
The guy from Columbus is rather annoying and maybe should put a lock on it. I have never been there, is it really "all that"? It sounds like a business paradise where taxpayers love to give their money away!:} Yes they have some tall buildings but I do not think I could identify an untitled photo as Columbus by their skyline. Maybe he slipped on some buckeye nuts hit his head and can't stop talking, buckeye nuts are very dangerous!